Thursday, August 18, 2005

Flat Tax Pros & Cons

Back to the subject, some percieved pros and cons of the flat tax.

Pros: simple, encourages investment, less bureaucracy, more money for the people, no more loopholes.

Cons: rich people keep getting richer, more burden on middle class, less money for charities & nonprofits, less tax revenue, where does social security fit in?, H&R Block goes out of business.

I don't know enough about the subject yet to deliver a policy, and if you have any evidence/opinions, please contribute.

84 comments:

Benton C. Glaze said...

Some more pros:
-higher revenues for the government, as it would eliminate gaping loopholes through with large corporations keep huge sums of money
-eliminates estate taxes, more money for survivers
-eliminates double taxation
-reduces the need for "tax shelters," due to the transparacy of the new, flat rate

it's not just theroy. the Baltic states, after forsaking socialism and adopting the flat tx system, have become some of the fastest growing economies in Europe. Same with Ireland, who joined the E.U. as one of the poorest nations, and now, due to a flat tax system, has a higher per-capital gpa the France, England, or Germany.

Benton C. Glaze said...

some cons as well:

-usually, savings and investment earnings arn't considered for flat taxes, usually paid wages, the rich earn more money (not really a con)
-race to the bottem effect

I think you've covered the other mian cons.

William said...

Sounds good...
I'm still skeptical on whether or not "increased income" would cover the revenues lost by double taxation, estate tax etc. And how are those included in a discussion on a flat tax? Doesn't a flat tax only cover income taxes?

Also, how do we know that Ireland's economy benefits solely from a flat tax, and not a variety of other factors?

The income gap also remains a very large problem. As previously mentioned, people get very upset when stuck in a system that screws them.

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would anyone like to take a small vote for my debate class?

which is better
a flat tax?
or no flat tax?

John said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John said...

A flat tax, or something using the flat rate as its base, just makes sense. The cons mentioned are presented under the assumption that the rich and super rich actually do end up paying what the brackets would indicate. We all know this not to be the case. I fail to see the logic in sustaining a system bloated with bureaucracy and riddled with loopholes, all built to serve those with the power to influence the policies, and merely divert the general public. The rich still get richer, they still don't pay their portion, and everyone else is still left holding the bag. Meanwhile, nobody who pays their share understands a bit of it.
Beyond any of this, though, is the simple fact that it's unjust to penalise a person simply because he or she makes enough money to fall into a higher bracket. Sure, our society may already be rife with all sorts of interclass injustice. But two wrongs do not make a right.
Why, of course we hold that all men are created equal! Apparently, they just shouldn't be taxed that way!

Anonymous said...

While a flat tax does seem like a good idea, I disagree entirely with it. As one other poster pointed out a flat tax usually doesn't include savings accounts or investments. So, to my understanding, if you were to take someone from the lower class, who works in a machine shop making twelve dollars an hour and tax his earnings at a flat ten percent and then do the same to a CEO of a large company that would be considered fair. However, the lower class guy only has one source of income, his job. While the two are being taxed at the same rate the CEO would have, probably, more than one other source of income. If the interest from a savings account or the returns on an investment would be ignored by a flat tax, how could I, as the lower class person, support such a thing? All that would do is keep me in the lower class and him in the higher class. Now, with all that being said when this country was first founded had they instituted a flat tax I believe it would have worked much better. No stock market, no investsments, and no savings account, and least not ones with such returns as we have today.

Anonymous said...

Actually - taxing the interest earned on the vast sums of money that the super rich recieve should also be fair game. It's still imcome afterall.

Anonymous said...

We think that the only fair way to tax is if everyone has the same tax rate. We justify this because everyone starts out with the same opportunity. As Americans, we are required to have schooling. Once a person reaches a certain age, he or she can legally drop out of school, but that is a personal choice. If someone can't afford an education, the government will help pay for it. Be that as it may, everyone has the same opportunity to get good grades, be involved in school, and earn scholarships. This way, poor people and rich people alike have the same possibilities of making good futures for themselves. Seems fair to us.

Olilios said...

The only ones who would protest a true flat tax would be all those who have so many tax dives they pay no taxes. It would work and it would reduce the National Debt almost the first year if eveyone paid it.

We would have to redifine "Income" as any source which increased your overall Net Worth or something like that.

I guess the bottom line is what have we got to lose by trying it.

Anonymous said...

I would just like to say in response to the poster who mentioned that, "If the interest from a savings account or the returns on an investment would be ignored by a flat tax, how could I, as the lower class person, support such a thing? All that would do is keep me in the lower class and him in the higher class"
The reasoning behind this is not to help the rich get richer and keep the poor in the poor house, but to encourage and promote savings. A person can always save a little and everything does not "need" to be spent on lavish things. Ever heard of The Duggars? http://www.duggarfamily.com/
They were debt free before their current show on TLC and that was with 15+ children. It can be done it is just a matter of choosing. I for one as a person who someday strives to be wealthy (I make under the national average yearly income right now) strongly agree with a flat tax proposal. It is fair because it is equal taxation across the board. However, the poor see it as unfair because it raises their current taxes. If you want to continue your current status of living in poverty and have no desire to gain wealth, then by all means support the current taxation, but if you wish to one day acquire and keep wealth, then you should seriously consider flat taxation and put as much in savings and other interest bearing accounts as possible.
I know this is an old post, but I hope someone on here reads it and has some resposes for me!
Thanks!

Midnite Rider said...

ok,my thoughts...No one has mentioned businesses in regard to a 'flat tax'.If a 'flat tax' is to be fair then businesses would have to included.I think a business should be taxed the same as the American individual taxpayer-on their gross and not their net.Once again simplification.Or vice versa,we should be taxed on our net after our expenses are deducted.After all,maintaining a family life is our 'business'(nice thought but will never happen)...As far as income is concerned I think the best definition would be all inclusive.For example,if a person were to win even $100 in a lottery it would be taxed.It is income.(the amount is arbitrary-anything less...well,who would care?)Any exemptions to taxation would be,or at the least should be,exempted are those monetary payments that are derived from insurance claims in regards to repairs or replacement values of properties lost due to accidents or acts of nature.I'm sure there are other exemptions,but I just can't think of any at the moment.

bnpark86 said...

In the first post by Benton C. Glaze, he mentioned the per capita GPA increasing for Baltic states and for Ireland. I am unfamiliar with the term "GPA" and was wondering if it was something similar to GDP?

Bryan said...

Hre is the way to fix ALL the problems witha flat tax... Make it a sales tax. If everyone has to pay 15% on everything they spend instead of everything they make then you garantee that ALL income will be taxed. This also means that people who are paid under the table i.e. illegal immigrants would be paying taxes as well as the rest of us. Companies will be paying the taxes on all the products that they have to purchase. This leaves no loopholes and no complications.

Anonymous said...

How about no income taxes? Like the good 'ol days.

Anonymous said...

For those that are stating that interest from accounts wouldn't count as income- why wouldn't it? It is now. When you have a bank account (and no, not just the rich do) and you acquire interest, you get a 1099R that is taxed as income, same as if it was from a job. Same goes with 401k, IRA, and pretty much anything else that aquires an increase over time. When you see that you contribute to a 401k and notice you don't pay taxes on it, well, you will when you retire. Why should all this change just because there is a flat tax? The only thing that would change regarding the interest-based taxes is the rate. Right now, there are often different rates for different kinds of accounts. If we were to enact a flat tax, you would no longer be penalized because you did the right thing and saved some money. To those that state a con is that the rich stay rich- well, a flat tax would more than likely make everyone that works richer. The rich worked for their money. We live in a country that (is supposed to) gives everyone the same opportunity. This shows in the guys that come here from 3rd world countries with $300 in their pocket and end up hedge fund billionaires. Equal opportunity does not equal the same outcomes for everyone. Some people just work harder than others. Unfortunately, we have a lot of people in this country who believe a career watching soaps should equal the same income as someone who works hard all their life. And no, I am not rich, but I am a hard working person, take the right steps, and should be compensated as such.

Anonymous said...

"We justify this because everyone starts out with the same opportunity."

This isn't entirely true. A person who is born in a lower class will have a more difficult time moving up than someone who is born into a higher class. Being born rich is a huge advantage. You are very likely to remain well off because of the people you know and because of better oppurtunities given to you.

The job market is an example. The best candidate does not always gets the job, it is often the one who is friends with those responsible for hiring.

There are exceptions, but the norm is for people to remain relatively close to the class they are born in to regardless of their intelligence and abilities.

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Roy said...

Roy said: We need to study history and what taxes did for this country. When we had up to 90% income tax in the 1950's we had a balanced budget and the middle class was a growing class in the USA. When Ronald Reagon was elected and he and Jack Kemp got the huge tax cut so no one paid more than 27% we went down hill from there. We became the nation of the corporations by the corporations for the corporations. Instead of corporations putting their money back in their business and hiring people they put it in the bank. We also saw a huge outflow of jobs from this country and a huge import, export deficite. Mexico has a few rich people who control the economy and most of the wealth and we are sinking in that direction. As long as we have a free vote we have a chance but the wealthy have always wanted to have complete control throughout history. We have a good contry here and to continue it we control the wealthy by taxation.

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Anonymous said...

I am in favor of a flat tax and it may be a lot less for each of us if we all did pay into the system. I believe a tax such as a consuption tax, where even all the people that make money under the table or even those dreaded drug dealers. So not matter what your source of income is, either legal or other, when you would spend any money you would pay a tax and the Govt. would collect it as most states do like a state sales tax. I get pretty annoyed when I see local drug dealers driving nice cars and flashing all the toys they have and know they have not paid a dime of Federal Income tax in years! I am sure with a tax as this it may only have to be 5-8 % as everyone will be contributing at aome point when they make any purchase. Why is it so hard for our Govt. or elected officials to see this?

Anonymous said...

i am in favor of a flat tax as well, because it just makes sense. its the only fair way to tax people. As for drug dealers that drive around in fancy cars, why do u think we have drug dealers? THE WAR ON DRUGS. there is an obvious demand for drugs in our country and someone has to supply it. If you want to get rid of drug dealers you should make all drugs legal. i am not in favor of legalizing all drugs, but it makes sense. instead of putting money in the hands of drug dealers, why not tax and regulate and give the money to the government. Prohibition does not work and it can be seen in history with regards to alcohol prohibition

Anonymous said...

Flat tax makes soooooo much sense if you simply think about it much less research it.

Everyone says "but the rich get richer!!" Well they are getting richer now anyways. Until the upper 5% start to share the 90% of money they own/control, thats not going to change!

With this tax system in place the tax bueracracy (spelling sorry) is largely removed, it is so simple, all citizens can uderstand it, no organization/entity is forced to pay higher tax than the next (even level of competition in that regard) etc etc.

My only suggestion for change is that the money be handled at the STATE level. The federal goverment would still exist, but would be forced to become much more efficient or begin massive downsizing. Our "elected" leaders would control what depts. of federal goverment get what % of the lump federal portion of taxes. In this regard, every constituent truely has a minor amount of control in regards to where there tax dollars are going. There would still be corruption, but it would be far more localized and more managable/punishable.

Anonymous said...

One small addition to the the above comment...Tax needs to be on INCOME not wages. There is a HUGE difference between the two and this would be the only way the flat tax could be expected to work.

Patrick Thompson said...

To be honest taxes dont really hit you until your 17 and you see everyone going through things, that you no your about to go through.

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waysid1@bellsouth.net said...

A fair tax is progressive.
A Flat Tax is the RICH MANS DREAM.
The tax only on consumption is even worse. It taxes 100% of the low income families income. Lesser amount as income rises until at the Bill Gates, and Buffet levels it's not even noticeable.
The Progressive Income Tax on all PERSONNAL REALIZED INCOME(within reasonable rates with NO special exemptions)is a tax (payment based on benefit received - direct or indirect) for:
1. Military protection.
2. Protection from international unfair infringements.
3. Maintenance of borders.
4. Highway network.
5. Public Education.
6. Regulation of Financial System
7. Maintenance of air traffic controls.
8. Freedom of trade in US and fairness of International trade.
9. Protection of Individual Rights
10. Justice System.
11. Basically all infrastructure support

Realized income is earned income, interest income, bond income, bonus income, realized capital gain income, and any other income realized by the tax payer.
There would be only the minimum of deductions to allow the minimum of Family/Household food, housing, health costs and individual deduction and not much more. The more successful you are the more these elements have helped to make it possible.
There would be little complication in such a system and it makes us all aware at least once a year that we all have some part in supporting our government and give it at least a pause to ask to we feel comfortable with what is being done with our contribution.
Think about it.
This is a very brief outline, but the gist of why the FLAT TAX or Consumption tx is NOT right.
I once had my own business and if it had succeeded I would have though personally it was great thing, but I also would be living, knowing it would not be fair.

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I am not convinced that our govt cannot operate on less than 10% Flat Tax from everyone. And I am referring to everyone: politicians, govt employees, corporations, churches, welfare recipients, poor/middle/wealthy income earners. If I left someone out, add them to the list.

If our govt cannot operate on <10% of our GNP then we should sub-contract out the government agencies and hold them accountable.

I am a middle income citizen and lose years of my life every year due to the IRS regulations and filings. I agree with all the previous posts concerning the IRS being broken. Let's add the entire government to the ranks of the "broken".

Subliminal Artist said...

I am in favor of a flat tax rate.

It's the most honest system! 40% of $1 is 40 cents 40% of $100 is $40 why would someone who has learned hard and takes risks earning $100 an hour need to pay 52% (in my country). You get punished for working hard, learning hard taking risks.
A flat tax would be a stimulus for people to learn and earn.

Also saving shit loads in civil servants and frustrating red tape. It's a communist point of view to have tax brackets letting the rich pay even more that they already do. You can make it fair to have a tax free amount say 16k a year to not hit the poorest. But flat tax without deduction for income tax makes everything so much easier and saves so much money. It can only be good.

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